My rebuttal to Matt Clarks
7 Reasons Why Atheism Makes No Sense To Me
You can find this article at:
http://www.walkingtheshoreline.com/7-reasons-why-atheism-makes-no-sense-to-me/
I have copied his numbered points and then wrote my response below them. Also, please remember this blog is reactive to his so if you are not reading his, some things may seem rather random.
#1: Because its practitioners don’t believe insignificance but still look for it
And
#4: Because it leaves truth up to individuals
I find that many religious folks forget about this thing called a conscience, and they tend to believe that a person who doesn’t believe in a god does not have ethics and morals.
If you’re not a full-fledged psychopath, then you have one and it keeps you on a moral and ethical path. That and your family, community, and environment over time add to it.
As time passes some people stop paying attention to different aspects of their conscience. There’s also those folks who like to add to it and may even insist others do the same. Regardless, all these kinds of deviations are found in every religious and nonreligious people group. Funny thing about this, atheist make up the least amount of people in prisons. If they didn’t have a conscience, morals, ethics, and a vision of their future, there would be way more.
I often describe myself as a science-based atheist cause your right, there are some that get stuck on a glitch and keep repeating the same thing over and over and don’t move on. It’s annoying when religious, atheists, and really anyone does this.
The science behind evolution and the big bang have been validated, but what was before all that? Scientists are still searching. They are gonna make mistakes and their peers are gonna point it out proudly causing them to go back to the drawing board. This is a good thing.
The human mind stays healthy when it’s learning and just like we have instincts to do things to keep ourselves alive and to keep our species alive, our mind is no different. Gods or no gods, a mentally healthy person will do what they can to stay alive and to enjoy life because of instinct.
I’m not saying that it’s this way for everyone. Some folks need more than just instinct for various reasons. Saying it’s low IQ or mental illness is not realistic, it’s really a variety, just like anything. Besides our intelligence and mental state, there’s also the environment we were raised in and are currently living in.
Personally, I’m not looking to disprove deities.
When I left Christianity I still believed in the supernatural and the possibility of gods and goddesses. The “there’s only one god” thing didn’t really make any sense anymore. I won’t say there are no gods cause you can’t prove something invisible isn’t there. I just don’t believe there are any gods. However, if there ever happened to be proof of a god or gods I would believe, but, I would not worship it or them.
Btw, as a Christian of 38 years, I never saw so clearly how arrogant American Christians are until I left that way of thinking. Well, not all of them are arrogant, but a lot are. And yes, I was too. Thinking that your religion is the correct religion and all other religions are incorrect, and that your god is the only god and all other gods are not only false gods but are demonic in nature, and to add insult to injury by preaching that anyone who doesn’t believe in your religion and obeys its rules and “loves” it’s one god will go to hell and burn for eternity, well, that is some solid arrogance.
Truth, in some ways, is relative. There are folks who want to pin it down, make it black and white. But life isn’t that way. In some ways that could be considered easier and I’m sure that’s why some folks want it to be that way. Others want it that way because they can use it to control people.
In most cases, besides one’s own conscience, a person’s family and their community decide what is right and what is wrong, what is and what isn’t.
Everyone is wrong at many points in their life. We often learn better by mistakes. It’s when we keep repeating those mistakes that there’s a problem that needs to be addressed. But making a mistake isn’t a call to stop believing in oneself, it’s a call to learn, adjust, and move forward. If it’s a repetitive mistake, well, that’s a sign one may need outside help. Whether it be family, a sibling, a friend, a therapist, a doctor, a spiritual leader, a trusted community member, a hotline, AAA meetings, and so on, whatever it be, it’s important to get help overcoming the obstacles you can’t seem to conquer.
There are things to me that I can never accept. I know in the back of my head that in some cultures they are accepted, but because I know they cause human suffering, I can not, nor will I ever accept them.
#2: Because it still requires faith somewhere
About the “belittling of faith”, I find it distasteful when people do this. However, I understand that in some settings, like in settings where there are no people that would have their feelings hurt, making jokes about faith can help some people let loose and release some of the pinned up tension they’ve been holding inside. This can also include lots of other things besides faith, like anything causing mental tension.
There are some atheists that are founded on faith, but for most of the atheist I know, this is not the case. I’ve seen too many reasons not to believe in Christianity, so if I were to find a reason to believe in deities, the Christian god wouldn’t be one of them. Still, I haven’t found any reason to believe in any god type being. And as I said before, if I did find a reason, if I did find undeniable proof, I would believe but I wouldn’t worship it. Many of the atheists I know feel the same way or at least part of the same way. A more scientific outlook kind of way. We aren’t actually believing there is not an Easter Bunny that lays eggs by faith, just like we aren’t believing there isn’t an all powerful, all seeing, … god by faith. Faith isn’t applicable.
#3: Because it often poses questions that it doesn’t seem to want to answer
I agree with some of what you said. Some atheists are philosophical and enjoy the questioning and not necessarily the answers. I’ve seen that with some humans in general, not just atheists.
And I also agree about being able to question. When I was religious, we could question to a point. However, if someone kept at it they were rebuked and shut down. At the time it seemed fair because they were quite annoying. But now that it’s been years and I can ponder this as an outsider, I realize the reason they wouldn’t quit was that they didn’t receive a good answer, and that’s all they wanted. I’ve also met folks both atheist and pagan who in the past were told to leave their Christian church because they had taboo questions. One of them was a child at the time. Their questions were genuine and even now I could easily answer from a Christian perspective, but their pastor/Sunday school teacher felt threatened.
I do understand that some people ask questions in a circle, as in circular reasoning. No matter what belief or non-belief, that’s annoying and not worth engaging in.
Most atheist I know have studied and researched before making any decision to believe or not believe. When I come across one that hasn’t and is outspoken I kinda cringe cause it’s very obvious and it isn’t pretty.
About Epicurus creed, I get it, it makes sense to me. I don’t blame god for all the people starving in third world nations, for the mother trying to suckle their babies but they have no milk so they watch their infants die in their arms. I don’t blame god for taking my dad’s life in such a horribly painful way, I don’t blame god for the suicide bombings and school shootings taking loved ones away from each other. I don’t blame god for the carnage done to women and children around the world. I don’t blame god because I don’t believe there is a god. I wouldn’t blame a fairy tale character or a mythological Titan, and to me, the modern gods are no different. However, since most people in the world believe in deities, I have to face the issue of god, or no god, and if there is a god then what kind of god. And that is why Epicurus creed is so relevant.
I’ll repost it from Matt’s blog. Here it is;
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
#5: Because it’s inconsistent with our beliefs about everything else
Good point! Maybe it was Michelangelo, or maybe Steve Jobs.
But really, just because we don’t know how or what or who set everything into motion doesn’t mean the things our ancestors made up out of a lack of information and out of superstition is true. While it may seem obvious to some that a male god created everything, it’s obvious to others that were part of a computer program, thus making the programmers the creators or gods. There are many other ideas out there. You can pick one if you want to, but not picking one shouldn’t be looked down on and condemning those who don’t pick your belief of choice isn’t cool and in my opinion, it’s unethical. Personally, while some ideas may seem fun, I’m not convinced of any of them. And not knowing is okay. I enjoy learning and bettering myself and being an inspiration for others. If I have it all figured out, or at least pretend to, I won’t be able to learn, so that’s not happenin.
Btw, for those who don’t know, here’s the definition of the anthropic principle according to Merriam Webster online dictionary.
: either of two principles in cosmology:
a : conditions that are observed in the universe must allow the observer to exist — called also weak anthropic principle
b : the universe must have properties that make inevitable the existence of intelligent life —called also strong anthropic principle
#6: Because it’s usually birthed in a bad religious experience
Again, I agree, well, at least in the US.
I’ve noticed three types of Atheists, though I’m sure there’s many more, on this subject, this is what I’ve noticed thus far.
One is the people born into it or may have had religious parents but were not indoctrinated and had a decent past. They are usually pretty level headed and content. Which makes sense because they haven’t lost their community and loved ones because of making the drastic choice of not following the religion they were born into.
The people born into it that had rocky and difficult upbringings are like anyone in their shoes, some get bitter, some turn to religion, some use it to make them a better person, and so on.
Two is the people who were hurt and are reactive. They’re like little balls of fire ready to explode at any time anywhere. Or if they aren’t the type to explode then they may be easily offended, run, or some other extreme reaction. Often these are the folks who “blame God” or “hate God.” They haven’t healed. A lot of them return to their previous religion.
Three, these types have taken their time and didn’t give up their religious notions easily. They studied and researched. Most of these folks can engage in conversation with a spiritual person respectfully and are often open not just to share their experiences and ideas, but also to listen and learn from others. Not that they don’t get exasperated by hearing the same arguments from people who seem to think it’s the first time they’ve heard it. But really most people would be annoyed by that.
Some of the folks in the third category cross between two and three because of the way they have been treated by religious folks. They started off nice and understanding and open to learning, but being barraged with circular reasoning, extreme cognitive dissonance, proud ignorance, and bullies has caused them to put up a shield and for some to become offensive.
#7: Because of my personal experience
While I again agree for the most part, naturally there are exceptions.
I, for one, worked to keep myself from ascribing to a belief system or even non-belief as a reaction to my own personal experience. I won’t say I’ve been perfect with it, but it’s something I check from time to time. I believe part of this may be part of my personality, but I also believe it’s from that time in my life when I was thirty-eight and had a giant rude awakening. I didn’t just wake up to the realization that I was in a cult, I also work up to basically my whole life and that I was lied to about almost everything I was taught. Once I was ready to start rebuilding my life I decided I wanted to have a foundation of truth even if the truth was unpleasant. This is why I didn’t jump at the opportunity to become an atheist. It was several years before I realized that I no longer believed deities existed. I do my best to take a scientific stance, and science is an ever learning field.
No one can claim that something they can’t see, feel or touch doesn’t exist. They can personally not believe in it, but they can’t disprove it. That’s why the burden of proof is on the claimer/believer. If someone told me that there are invisible, untouchable, flying unicorn horses shooting rainbows out their butts, I can choose to believe or not believe. However, if I don’t believe, it’s not my job to prove such creatures don’t actually exist. That job would belong to the claimer. It’s really quite simple.
I was a firm believer and dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ for the first 38 years of my life. I was immersed in the Bible and I took my “relationship” with Jesus very seriously. Over the years I too witnessed and had miracles, saw people hear from the Lord speak from a prophet, pastor and lay people, and be point-on. I’ve felt the presence of the Holy Ghost and so on. For all those years besides all the indoctrination, I also had a solid background of things that added up in my mind. What I was lacking was an education. I’m not saying religious folks aren’t educated, but I was one that wasn’t. I was taught that a person who is truly saved doesn’t get depressed and that meds for mental issues like depression open one’s mind up to demonic oppression and possibly possession. I was taught that psychologist, psychiatrists, therapist, and counselors, including Christian ones, were bad. That people who went to college were in danger of being fooled and believing lies and losing their soul. Not that we didn’t know folks who were educated and active Christians, they were exceptions I guess. So, although I studied and researched back then because my material was influenced by the religious community, I was quite ignorant.
I believe that my parents were afraid that if I pursued a college education I would get smart and start seeing the lies they and others had been feeding me. I believe this is a common fear in many religious communities. Even back then I would have found it silly. Personally, I wasn’t afraid of going to college. If something is solidly true, why the fear?
I learned over the years little by little that the things I saw as miracles and words from the Lord were basically the same as a magic show, slight of hand, a trick of the eye, and psychological games. For all those amazing testimonies of healing I heard from others, I have to admit my gullibility which many people just won’t do. Those folks were likely lying or misinformed. By misinformed, I mean that when we don’t have an answer for how something happened we tend to label it a miracle when in fact there likely is a scientific reason we just don’t know about. For folks who say they saw this miracle and that miracle and there was no way it was caused by any outside force other than god, I’d like to remind you of your modern appliances and home equipment. For instance your TV and computer. If you walk outside you will not see a big projector shining into your window causing the image to appear on your screen. We know it’s not a miracle because we grew up being told what it really was whether we remember and whether we understand it or not, we just know it’s a science thing that’s true. Many things people see as miracles and supernatural, from a person trained in that field, there is a logical explanation. But when you really want to believe it’s a miracle or that you’re hearing from the Lord, it’s easy to dismiss the science behind it and ignore it even when it’s presented to you. I’ve personally seen people get angry over this. Our desires are strong and we guard them often ferociously and often subconsciously. Hearing from god, prophets and so on was a big one for me. My ex-cult leader was considered a prophet. I saw him tell folks about themselves that he never met before and knew nothing about. It was amazing and exciting to see the Lord at work. Now I understand that there are people that are very good at reading people. The little things like a slight expression change and body stance add up and all mean something to a person who notices it and comprehends what it means. I do believe there are people who are inclined to have this ability more naturally that don’t realize they have it. In that case, I can understand why they think they are hearing from a god or spirit. There’s also a lot of liars. I know I keep saying this, but, it’s true. People fib… often, they even lie to themselves. Many, over time, end up believing their own lies. It’s a psychological thing. This is a major plus for religion.
So, yeah, I held on to beliefs for as long as I could but one by one I learned the truth behind the illusions wither I liked it or not. Sure, there are still many things I don’t know about or understand, and that’s actually pretty cool cause that means I get to keep learning and discovering. I’m also okay with being wrong. Once I learn I am wrong about something it gives me a better opportunity to learn more truth.
Back to psychology, many so-called miracles can be explained by how our brain works and thinks. While it may be disappointing to some when a miracle bubble is burst, I think learning how our brains work is just as fascinating. This explains why people all over the world with very different beliefs experience the same exact miracles, healings, words from the supernatural, that amazing feeling, and so on. It’s not because all beliefs are correct, that wouldn’t actually work for quite a few of them, but it does add up when you start learning how amazing our very own brain actually is and how what we know is small compared to the knowledge that has been gathered by humans and that is small compared to what we will learn in the future. Life is still very exciting without the aid of deities.
As far as folks getting “saved” often, I keep telling people that it’s in style to be a Christian in the US at this time. Actually, if one is an atheist or Muslim, they are often looked down on. They may even lose their job and friends or can’t make friends because of it. It certainly is quite difficult to get elected if you don’t claim to be a Christian. I really can’t blame people for lying about being a Christian just to get voted for in politics and other national and local voting things. I don’t think I could lie about it, I don’t think it’s necessarily right, but I understand it. There are some places in the US where this doesn’t apply. But as a whole, Christianity at this time in history is being used to dominate and even bully its way not just into everything, but into being in charge and having the last say in everything. It seems like every reality show I watch on TV, like the news and reality shows and so on, someone brings up being a Christian and how important their faith in Jesus is. Their words are always met by the loudest applause of the night and often met with praise later on in some way. It’s one thing to be proud of your beliefs, but it’s another to push them on to others.
About Matt’s ending remarks.
I appreciate this invitation to share beliefs and reasonings in a respectful manner. Although I am an atheist, being a science-based atheist I know that I don’t and will never know everything. Just because someone may be a Christian or Muslim, Hindu or Pagan, Mormon or Satanist, etcetera, doesn’t mean they do not have an intelligent brain and that they have nothing to bring to the table. Being divided is a great way to halt progress. I’m pro progress and I believe in coexisting. I will ask you to please understand that those who have been hurt by religion need time to heal at their own pace and coexisting may sound horrible to them. That’s is perfectly understandable. Laying judgmental thoughts aside and giving people room is important. Like Matt said, “We’re all people on a journey trying to discover the truth in our own lives.”
Written on 6/30/18 & 7/4/18.
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